Howdy,
Well, well well. It seems I've struck a nerve and have some 'splainin to do. Well, I choose to do so, anyway.
Okay. I wrote this first thing this morning before I had any coffee, tea or food. I was excited to get my email and did it right away. Maybe, not a good idea.
Most of you are misinterpreting what I meant, and having gone over my post, I think I can see why. I have nothing against the original poster, and don't think the question is inappropriate at all. They were very massageplaneteful not to offend. I was not. I don't appologize for that, but I'll get to that later.
If you are so inclusive and accepting, why can't you accept someone who doesn't know anything about something. From my point of view, with no clue about No Hands, this question sounded like someone was trying to pull one over on this person and make them look stupid. That's not cool in my book, and I expressed how I felt about it. If you need me to spell it out, it sounded like clever way to say rubbing your penis on someone. Don't you see how I might have thought that with no knowledge of No Hands? I'm not pudish because this offends me (it sounds like fun in the appropriate context), but someone saying that (whoever led her to believe this) in the context of therapeutic massage, is offensive. I deal with enough innuendo and the use of the word massage as a euphamism for protitution, that I'm a little jumpy on the subject. I'm very clear on boundaries, it's most of our culture that's got it messed up. I'm knee deep in this stuff all the time, and I'm so used to shooting it down, that, well, let's say I have a facilitated finger flexor holding my trigger. I didn't verify my target. My bad.
I was trying to help her see that she was being messed with. I now know this was not the case. Yes, my response was mean, but not to whom you think it was.
Do I have to use the word vitriol to fit in here? 'cause I had to look it up, so forgive me if I get the nuance of its usage wrong at first.
See, now that was mean. :wink:
An ignore function, well that says allot. Do you need to ignore people who disagree with you? I wish I could live in fluffy happy land, too.
mush: Thanks for the understanding. I am fiesty, or as one lady at school put it, intense. I'm passionate about what I do, and intensely aggresive about what I think, and say it passionately. I agree about not being a vocabulary nazi with laypersons, that's just wrong and petty. (Everyone else who claims to be a professional, you're fair game, and fairly warned :wink: )
I wasn't harping on her about the sensual/sensuous thing at all, actually. Thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it. And thanks for the suggestion of being smooth, but I say nah! I'll leave that for politicians and slick dudes at the bar; I'd rather be like the giant Kool-Aid jug man, and smash into the place with a big noise yelling "Alright!." That way, everyone notices, and though I risk spilling a little of my red sugar water in the process, I'm like hey, that's my essence staining your shirt, and I stand behind it. And it's yummy!
Shannon: I agree this is the right place to ask such a question. With all due respect, you are really clouding the issue here by bringing up Healing Touch as a no hands massage. It's not massage in any way, we both know that. My point is it's an energy technique, and I don't think it should be associated with the word massage. I'm really nit-picking here, but it may confuse a layperson.
As far as the insults go, I've done no such thing. I merely challenged something that smelled phoney. I'm not bickering, I'm asking for a debate. I never said her question was insincere, nor did I imply that SHE was asking something vulgar, please reread my post. Your warning is noted, however.
I'm not trying to be abrasive, oooh ooh, wait, I'm not trying to be vitriol here. I'm not trying to bicker, I'm expressing myself, and trying to learn. Which brings me nicely my next rebuttal.
A breath of fresh air, fozzyo, really. Thanks. Actually, that's a good idea... let's all take a nice, big breath in, and invert the universe, and slowly out. good.
I am indeed here to discover new things about massage. And thankfully, yours was the best response in this regard. I enjoyed reading that, and now I know something I didn't know yesterday. Sounds like a great thing, this no-hands. My critique was narrow and crude, but I basicly stand by it. Its not that I'm down on your tech, its that I'm so up on mine. I had great teachers, including osteopaths. That slump technique was actually taught to me by my clinic supervisor. They didn't call it that, though. And I'm willing to learn whatever you'd like to share about No Hands, but I have to say, I really believe that much of it I probably already know, and/or use already. I totally fall onto my clients in a long erector strip, its a controlled fall, but still. Really for me everything just comes down to knowing the anatomy and then how intelligent and skillful your kinesthetic systems are, for lack of a better term.
Anyway, I respect your apology for your modality. I'd like to carry on this discussion elsewhere, if you'd like to. It was well said, and you clearly believe in what you do. You ever notice the masters, like Bruce Lee, don't do a bunch of nonsense in the periphery? They just go straight to the point with their intent. In your calm but effective response you didn't need to try really hard to sound impressive. *insert segue here*
Ahh.
Macalla. You are clearly very young; I say so because you are trying way too hard. I'm not impressed with your wordplay. My original post was weak, and you landed a few blows there because I was kindof all over the place and not being very clear. You have, however, taken my gambit, and revealed yourself much more than I have. In trying to impress everyone, you've lost my respect due to your lack of humility, and for your obvious high opinion of yourself. (I only respect my high opinion of myself, so this isn't really your fault) I will forgive your insolence, since you are young.
But this isn't about attacking you, its my defense of you attacking me.
Since you felt it necessary to try to put me in my place, and be so superior let me say this: you and I are clearly from different worlds, opposite in fact. All the things that you likely think put you on top, are exactly the things that put you further down on my scale, the higher you think you rank, the lower you appear from my point of view.
Shall we?
Let's go point by point here, like you did. My rebuttals will begin with a ---
.................................................................
BlackPearl wrote:
Good, people need to be insulted sometimes.
And you've jumped in and made that your very first impression here.
---you say that like it's a bad thing.
Tell me then, since you're ready for a debate, when is it appropriate to insult someone. Please explain and give examples.
---Let's say my best friend Jim, somewhere along the way, got the idea that horses give milk just like cows. It might be a little insulting for me to go up to him and tell him he's wrong, and has been wrong for a long time. But if I truly love him, and care about him, I will have the courage to say this to him despite the unpleasantness of doing so.
---Everyone is different, if I develop into a certain person, with a certain point of view, there naturally will be people who believe things opposite to what I believe. I could just be phoney and say that I accept everyone's opinion and say everyone is right, or I could have the courage to stand for what I believe. That means I will by definition oppose some people. People with with limited understanding take this as an insult, because they don't understand the duality inherent in all things. My assertion of something on one side includes its refutation on the other side, and also owes its existance to it. Those who don't see this are offended by being disagreed with. This is not my fault, it is their shortcoming and there is nothing I can do about it. I can respect their frustration, but it does nothing to alter the relative truth or falsehood of my position, no matter how much they whine about it.
It may be "fun" for you to insult people, to make you, "Black Pearl", feel better about yourself, it may release some of your pent up inner turmoil (there are better ways, you yourself should know that), but "appropriate?" Please, show me how that's true?
---your assumption is wrong. it is fun to "insult" people. but not for why you think. In the sense I have shown above, this insult is me expressing and manifesting my truth. It is fun because manifest truth is fun and feels great. I have no need to release inner turmoil in this manner. Inner turmoil is the engine of the universe, how could I, or why would I, need to let that go?
BlackPearl wrote:
The phrase no hands sensual massage sounds inappropriate to me. I'm offended by this.
Then you are easily offended and seem somewhat prudish. No problem there, you have every right to be prudish. But your terminology about the "gutter" shows you to be judgemental and rigid. No problem there either (well actually there is...) if that makes you happy.
---nicely done. this clearly shows you making a judgement about my nature, and then pretending to be PC about it, all the while accusing me of doing that very thing. Your argument that my use of the word gutter makes me such and such is just weak.
BlackPearl wrote:
I don't care if someone is offended by me saying so, that's their right. To me that sounds dirty and inappropriate, and it sounds like someone was trying to dupe that original poster so they could have a laugh at her.
Interesting take but no way to prove that you are even in the ballpark there.
---there is no substance here to comment on, I was directly saying what I thought, what proof could anyone offer for such a thing? do you want my mental transcripts?
BlackPearl wrote:
As for the comments on the regular no hands: this does not sound legitimate to me.
So what? She was asking not on a professional level but personal. Do you support the repression of touch between consenting adults? I sure don't. We need more of it. This world is suffering from a lack of empathy, love and compassion. Do you equate sexual communication as being "dirty?" I don't. I find that sad that some people actually do.
---It's nice that you used my comment as a vehicle to tout your world view. Your question is limiting (see example #2, above), and self-serving, so I choose not to answer.
BlackPearl wrote:
No one has made a single remark in its defense, other than getting defensive.
Clearly it didn't need defending except against your churlish vitriol.
---Thanks, I just learned two new words. I like churlish, it's fun to say, the "url" sound goes really well with the meaning. Nothing ever needs anything, I was asking if anyone could offer it, I got one, btw.
BlackPearl wrote:
Which is always a sign of insecurtiy.
Pot calling kettle! Again more judgementalism. The only one sounding remotely insecure here is you.
---That's nice. Judging is a fundamental psychological skill, so I will not deny that I do so. All these 'isms, are you in second or third year at university? I don't see how I'm sounding insecure.
BlackPearl wrote:
If you can't handle a debate, then don't talk to me.
Getting "defensive?" Now what did you just say that implies? (Hint- see your remarks just previous to this. )
---I'm so demeaned by your generous offer of a hint, oh sage one. That, again, was just a statement, that you're reading way too much into.
BlackPearl wrote:
I call a spade a spade. If I'm proven wrong, I will concede and not take it personally. I debate issues, not people.
Evidence to the contrary.
---This sentence fragment conveys no meaning, please try again. If you've read this far, you should have read that I have been proven wrong, that I've accepted this. You're the only one getting personal, making assumptions on my nature. (Well, of course, now I am too, but you started it, neihn neihn neihn ne neihn neihn.)
BlackPearl wrote:
And in our field their is so much bs and pseudoscience that we can't afford to be gray on these issues.
Re-read the opening post and see how silly you look replying with the blind gusto you replied with. In our field we need less people trying to marginalize touch and the repression of touch. Massage is "consensual boundary crossing" even at it's most elementary level. I think this gal had a legitimate question. You came off like Jerry Falwell or James Dobson with your "gutter" and "vulgar" analogies. That's me calling a "spade a spade."
---okay, I accept most of this. I don't know how I'm repressing touch however, is this another springboard for your world-view? Who are these people you speak of? I don't apoloize for my gusto.
BlackPearl wrote:
I was making a serious point on something I actually believe.
Fine, you believe what you want to believe, but try to defend it without acting like a prig. This is a community here, show some respect. There are people here with a lot of wisdom, why alienate people with your arrogance right off the bat?
---ahh, meat and potatoes. ahem. really, I can believe what I want and it's okay with you? gee thanks. Just learned another word, but I don't understand how I'm being a "theif." If this is indeed a complete community, it should include resident devil's advocates, @#$-disturbers, punks, and revolutionaries like myself. If you truly respect people, you tell them the truth as you see it. Perhaps you should show me some respect. Past wisdom, though I'll always take it into consideration, is no longer a viable option for me. This is a time of great change, and rather than seforum.xxxnate and be safe, I have chosen the more dangerous option of forging ahead myself, forming my own wisdom as I go. The stakes are higher, and the spoils more delicious. Those who are truly wise will know why I need to do this for myself, and not see it as disrespectful. I cannot alienate other people, I can only alienate myself from them. It's a bit lonely, but it's what I need to do with my life to acheive my truth. If I'm arrogant, it's because I need to to cut through mediocrity. Once communication is established, I can be other versions of myself. And now to balance off all these baseball expressions, I will simply say: keep your stick on the ice.
BlackPearl wrote:
If that insults somebody, so be it. I will not alter my truth to satisfy people's limited palate.
Again, you are arguing for the repression of ideas which make you the one with the limited palate.
---this is getting old. if you don't understand something, just ask.
BlackPearl wrote:
I still don't see how what I said was insulting though;
It was in your approach. Talking about having one's mind in the gutter because they dared to ask about sensual techniques. You insulted all of us who don't share your myopic view of things.
--again with the six penny words. man. I will concede that my approach was insulting, but we covered the "why" of that already. You just plain misunderstood why I talked about the gutter. I didn't accuse her of being there because she brought up sensuallity, I was using it to make her see what I then thought she was being told. I've already said I was wrong about this.
BlackPearl wrote:
teachers, therapists and hobbyists of what exactly?
Take a look at the name of this forum and perhaps you'll figure that one out yourself.
---this, I'll admit, was an unfinished thought, so I'll give you this one.
BlackPearl wrote:
I maintain that this method is nothing special, and is just using your forearms and elbows, something we should all do anyway. Why should someone profit on that? I welcome any serious discussion on this. If you just want to post a sarcastic emotional reaction, save it for someone else.
Funny, that's exactly what you did with your very first post. Scroll back and see for yourself. You want to have a serious discussion? You tell me why someone who politely comes here to ask about a sensual technique to use with her boyfriend should be jumped on by the likes of you? I applaud her question. This is a touch repressed world which in case you haven't figured it out yet is why you have a job. I support the dialogue of assisting people in their efforts to explore touch. You want a serious debate, check out Wilhelm Reich's book "The Function of the Orgasm" and see how the repression of touch makes whole societies and cultures sick. It's a valuable place to start.
---my response was heavily emotional, and here's where I'll say why. There are allot of bogus therapies out there, and people trying to profit on people's lack of knowledge, hope, and trust. This is the machine that I rage against, and will rage against untill we succeed. Since I wrote that, I have read fozzyo's brilliant apology for his modality, and it has convinced me of its worthiness for acceptance - pending further investigation, of course. My response, was not, however, sarcastic and defensive.
---again, I did not jump on her at all. I jumped on what I thought was someone being the object of ridicule, and a technique that superficially sounded bogus. This was not a mistake, however. I need not fully research something before I put a temporary label on it. This is a natural brain function, used all the time, such as encountering a stranger the street.
---touch repression: ho man, your condescention is really starting to irritate me. but, I know you're young and there's a few things you've yet to learn about your relationship to other people. So with great difficulty, I'll forgive this one too. I'm glad you're on the right page, but you sound like a foot soldier giving battle tips to the General. It's actually kinda cute that you think you're telling me about Reich.
BlackPearl wrote:
Oh, and I just asked my girlfriend, she said it sounded dirty, too.
You both have my deepest sympathy.
---I offered this as supporting evidence that to a layperson, the idea of no hands sensual massage sounded like it did. Thanks for your sympathy though, the sincerity is heart warming.
Anastasia: all's I'm gonna say is that if you saw with my eyes, you wouldn't dare lighten up. I'm nicely balanced and able to lighten up when appropriate, but I'll leave the dreaming to the pawns whose lot in life affords them such luxuries. (not you, just sayin)
So, I appologize to anyone with delicate sensibilities for having to endure such pointless bickering. I felt I had to defend myself becuase I was misunderstood, and on that basis, attacked. I do not appologize for defending myself, or being brash, punk or controversial. It is that is part of my character that has made me who I am, and probably that which made me worthy of the amazing woman who spends her time with me.
I've been writing for hours now, and I congratulate and thank anyone who has read this whole thing. Let this serve as my introduction. I could have just said hi, and everyone would be nice and say Hi back, but this is so much better. Anyone who read that whole thing should have a good idea where I'm coming from. I know I'm not alone, I've never met my brethren, but I feel you out there. More on this elsewhere.
I look forward to talking to some collegues, people on similar paths, and of course, to those who aren't. I know I offend some people, and am very comfortable with that. It is part of my larger purpose.
I appologize for hijacking this thread, but such is life, veering and twisting where you never thought it would.
If the mods feel that my opinions are too controversial, there is no need to ban me, just PM me and I'll leave. If these forums are not the right place for such discussions, I can accept that without contempt. I have learned a great deal about myself tonight, well, okay, maybe I was only reminded, but it was fun. And I learned about No Hands, that there may be more to what I already use. My mind is churning now with more thoughts on mechanics. I might even take a course. Are there any in Canada?
If this is goodbye, than so be it. I'm quite used to being too much for people to handle, and am no longer offended by it.
If people would like to discuss things, may I suggest this lovely bit of controversy in another thread. Get your feelings and ideas together on this one and we can have a go at it: Why I think body/mind/spirit connection is outdated nonsense. (Please start a new thread, I feel bad enough about hijacking this one.)
Well, goodnight.
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