MP Closings Hidden Agenda Exposed - Zona Rojo Coming

[Keith F]

The reason for all the attention, closings, coverage and problems has been discovered in this wide-ranging investigative expose.

San Jose, Costa Rica - The much publicized closing of the Massage Parlors recently has been revealed to be part of a Costa Rican government program to prepare for the upcoming announcement of Central America’s newest and most progressive answer to the struggle between sex tourists, who bring copious amounts of cash into the country, and the upper middle class Ticos who are tired of sharing the sidewalks with khaki-short-wearing gringos scurrying off to their next appointment to swill Imperials and defile the young and naïve young ladies of the nation. The full details have not been released, but the planned development has been rumored to be an adult Disneyland which will accommodate both the necessity to serve customers and to clean the streets of unwanted establishments in historical neighborhoods. The working name of this development was recently leaked as either “Ticaville” or “Ticaland”.

An enlightened decision has been made at the highest levels of government that the legalization of prostitution should stand, but that a more stringent form of regulation should be established, and a Zona Rojo should be encouraged to reverse the sprawl of these businesses to family-centric neighborhoods. It has further been decided to crack down on the possibility of pimping by making it more difficult to get a license to operate as existing Massage Parlors have been running due to the perceived closeness of the business model to outright brothels. The independence of prostitutes has been deemed preferable to the potential for coercion and mistreatment.

We interviewed the real estate developer who has applied for building permits to join the seven other establishments that have already applied for their permits to start construction in the zone outlined in the city council’s redistricting guidelines for an adult commerce zone of tolerance which will be located near downtown San Jose. He took us on a virtual walk through of the envisioned development and business model deemed allowable by the city council. No longer will establishments such as Zona Blue and New Fantasy be allowed to be in the business of supplying women, and providing the space for their activities. The coupling of both of those business models is too near pimping to be acceptable, so in the future independent contractors will be able to congregate in any number of various bars and social clubs along the Zona Rojo.

The Zona Rojo will be laid out along two streets, and will eventually be pedestrian only, and with limited access to two points to discourage through traffic and remove the area from common daily sight. There will be independent bars to fit every taste and budget, and the girls who frequent them shall find their own comfort level and be free to move at will between establishments just as customers will on a daily basis. The bars and social clubs will not employ the women in any capacity, nor will they provide rooms or facilities for trysts between the women and their customers unless they are also full service bona fide hotels where customers actually stay for their visit. Most bars will solely be in the bar business and shall make their money by providing attractive places for customers and girls to gather, drink, and dance. There will be room for as many as 20 different bars in the Zona Rojo. Girls are free to meet customers and then depart to the customer’s hotel if it is located outside the Zona Rojo. Alternatively, there will be as many as 15 licensed Spas, Saunas, and short time facilities in the Zona Rojo which will be allowed to rent out facilities for girls and their customers to use on a short time basis. None of the Short Time facilities shall be allowed to employ girls available for customers in any way. They shall simply sell rooms to the customers for their use. The city council explained that as long as no bar employs and controls the women, then they are not in the sex business and can not be accused of pimping. The Spas do not employ any women and can therefore not be accused of pimping or being brothels as they have no part in the transaction between girl and customer. The girls and customers are free to meet in any bar and once they negotiate their independent deal are free to go to any local facility for a short time or to a regular hotel room at their discretion. Since the bars and Spas are actually across the street from each other, or in some cases next door, their should be no complaints from customers about inconvenience, and since no one but the girls is involved in the profits of the tryst, no business owner is involved in the sex business, other than providing an attractive and competitive place for customers to chose from. The developer suggested that patrons envision a combination of Nana Plaza in Bangkok with the Japanese Love Hotels, and The Key Largo all rolled in to one long location with businesses only steps away from each other and venues to make any working girl or customer feel at ease.

The bars are expected to range from low-budget dives and bikers joints serving cheap liquor to counter-culture expats of the hippy generation to discos with loud music serving a younger clientele, to 5 star lounges serving more discriminating clientele Scotch and Cigars. The Short Time Facilities are envisioned to be ranging from basic rooms for budget backpackers starting at $10 to hotel style rooms for $20 to Japanese style Saunas and Spas with full Spa facilities and massage tables likely starting at $35 a session. Time limits will be set by each business owner under market demands. Developers imagine a customer arriving via taxi and walking along the avenue to meet friends at their favorite meeting place where they find girls that meet their budget, or occasionally stroll from one to another. The customer would then find a girl that interests him, they would have drinks and negotiate ther activities and then he would decide whether he wanted to return to his hotel, save money by selecting a cheaper on site room, or if she is promising a high level of service and a massage he could opt for a full sauna suite will built in Jacuzzis and massage table at a facility that also has steam rooms and baths available for customers to use.

Existing businesses outside the ZR will be allowed to continue operating as long as they conform to the new codes. Bars are not allowed to employ prostitutes or provide on site adjoining facilities under common ownership. On Site Short Time Facilities are barred from offering women on site in their business in any way. Hotels will be allowed to allow customers to bring girls to their rooms (even if pulled out if their existing bars) at their discretion as long as the hotel is a bona fide hotel, and the women are in no way employed by or connected to the hotel.

The Zona Rojo is actually only the first of three planned developments of this zoning. One is perceived to be focused on tourists and North American clientele (to be located in the downtown area), the second is planned to be located in a locale which will likely cater to local citizens but under the same framework. A third area will likely mix both and be a wide ranging mix of facilities.


(Ok, so that’s my fantasy, and my solution. I’m not saying it’s going to happen, or that it’s even likely, but it should. Your opinions and suggestions are welcome. I’m sure the San Jose city council is eagerly awaiting our solution to the problem so let’s get busy and plan our own Disneyland. But one caveat: have fun, be imaginative, and don’t be a whining depressing naysayer. Come up with your own T*******.)

 

[pittyakker]

wrong section

should be in funny section...

 

[Onica]

AL's observation and ideas are very interesting; they remind me about the RLD in Amsterdam, Pascha house in Koln (Germany) and Bahndam in Duesseldorf (also Germany). This is all nice and neat - but there will always be Massage Places in the city. Most FKK-clubs are outside the city
(5 to 10 miles), smaller clubs are in the center of large cities (always under the radar and very discreet). This could be developing in CR over the time of several years. I think the very open business of Zona B and Fantasy might be coming to an end. It's a pity; I've been to CR several times and realy enjoy it.
My @ centavos.
Duessel

 

[Rorschach]

Cariden, I take your point. But while I did present the whole thing in a humorous way, it wasn't intended to just be funny, but to start a conversation about what can be done to solve the apparent problems the citizens feel are egregious enough to complain loudly about, and the government feels strongly enough about to go out and hassle businesses on a daily basis.

Something's not working, things may not go back to the way they were, and I just wanted to hear from some people ideas for alleviating the concerns enough that we could continue enjoying SJ.

Oh, and also, the other thing is that I was just being an attention whore, in trying to get people to actually read it. :

 

[wilster]

Alright Archie, I'm in as an investor and a client. : :

Make sure you call me for the "Pre-Grand Opening"

Until then, I'll be looking for a new "playground!"

PUTA VIDA, BOYS!

whoops, I mean

PURA VIDA!

 

[funnyarmor]

funny

just was disappointed that it wasn't true.... got all the way to the end before i realized it was a LIE....hehehe

 

[Maggie Monette]

I frequent many Mexican border towns and the setup is almost the same, TJ, Nuevo Laredo, Reynosa, and Cancun. A Zona Roja in which everything goes, some are a close-in compound like Nuevo Laredo, Cancun and Reynosa. Others are almost exactly like you are proposing, ex: TJ.

I do have to agree with the San Jose population and wouldn’t want mongers walking around my town as we currently do in the CR. A lower-profile area like you describe could be the solution. WTF!

Archieleach for CR President!

 

[sludgecookies]

AL,

Your proposal could have been written by an urban redevelopment planner. It is an interesting concept, but I doubt the wheels of tico government could get something like this off the ground.

 

[Answer King]

BD,

You're probably right, I doubt they would be so aggressive and revolutionary in one swoop. But even if there wasn't actual government approval, such a renovation could benefit all involved even if done unilaterally by business owners trying to mitigate the aggravating factors and attention by cleaning up their business models. It would work particularly well if involved business owners themselves pro-actively approached the powers involved and made suggestions to clean up the issues involved.

Often the best solutions for people in our position is NOT to sit back and let everyone else come up with the next moves and directions to be taken because they do NOT have our interests in mind at all. If we, as customers and business owners, want a positive resolution we have to take into account their concerns and find a way to get what we want while respecting the issues that have been serious enough to cause them to action. Mp owners, bar owners, are you listening? Start talking to each other. But I have only marginal hope that they will work towards a solution, they're all hanging on hoping NOT to have to revolutionize their business practices, and move their businesses. They're lazy. Which leaves us, and at this point we have no voice.

Don't make me break out the staff and white robe and stand on the hill in a lightning storm. I will lead my people through the valley of desolation and onto the lapping shores of the pink paradise.

JOsie, I am currently accepting campaign donations. :wink: :?

 

[Fu2]

Sounds like the Herbertstrasse near the Reeperbahn in Hamburg only Germany allows Brothels.

 

[Little Monster ?]

Its an interesting concept that has been applied elsewhere, however I see several problems with implementing such a plan:

1) NIMBY, "Not In My Back Yard", what neighborhood is going to want their area turned into a concentrated adult pleasure zone? Not many. Finding an area to place this in without any political opposition from somebody will not be so simple.

2) The really hard-core anti-prostitution constituency that doesn't like prostitution AT ALL will not see this as a solution. They will see this as a capitulation not a compromise and will be apoplectic that not only will prostitution now be getting SJ's OFFICIAL approval (as opposed to the tacit ignore the problem altogether approach that had been taken), these activities will be allowed to concentrate and flourish openly in one massively blatant festering sore.

3) The areas that will "accept" turning their neighborhoods into a massive flesh market, or at least are the most powerless to stop it will probably be the ones that are already the scummiest and/or where many such businesses already exist. Your "article" did not specify exactly where this new adult pleasure zone would be but I'm guessing it could be someplace like the 8 block area between Avenidas 5 y 9 and Calles Central y 8 (With Avenida 6 and perhaps Calle 4 becoming the pedestrian only steets at night). This would be out of the more upscale historic areas such as Amon and further away from the more popular areas such as the Avenida Central Promenade and its surrounding streets with all its hotels, casinos museums, plazas and shops (which is why the Gulch would be disqualified as a candidate area).

4) The problem with that area for us is that it is already a dirty and dangerous area. The bigger problem with turning that area into the new adult pleasure zone is that if you dump a bunch of drunk money-toting gringos into one concentrated area such as that it would attract even more criminal elements than it already has. Where in your fantasy proposal was any mention made of how the authorities would deal with any of that? You painted a picture of some magical area where gringos could walk around safely from bar to bar unmolested by anyone else except perhaps the beautiful FEMALE streetwalkers that would flock to that area. We all know the reality would be much different. And given the authorities relative failure to act on crime in the Gulch, how likely would it be that they'd expend much effort or expense on this aspect of your plan?

I'd add to your plan that there should be extra lighting put into the area and even lots of outside security cameras (like we already have inside at the HDR/BM) AND lots of police (or security guard) foot patrols. Of course, all that costs money and it would have to come from somewhere, which would probably mean businesses that are really raking in the dough like the HDR, NF, ZB etc would need to pony up some of their profits to pay for it (in addition to relocating their operations) and I'm not so sure how happy they'd be to go along with that (actually I'm sure they'd be very UNhappy).

A second thing that I'd add, that I didn''t see any mention of in your article, is the long rumored but presently non-existent mandatory health inspection for working chicas. This should be required of any women expecting to ply her trade in "T*******" whether in the bars or out on the streets. They should all be required to carry a special cedula, presentable upon request to the roving security patrols, demonstrating both their legal age and that they've been tested for STD's during the past month.

The third adjustment that I'd make to your plan concerns turning the streets into permanent pedestrian only affairs. That would further add to day time traffic snarl on the surrounding streets and piss off the taxi drivers more than they already are. What I would propose instead is they only close those streets off to traffic in the evenings (with removable blockades) after most of the street traffic has died down anyway.

 

[320x200]

Pro,

These are legitimate criticisms and shortcomings you bring up. And I'm not sure that they can all be overcome, or would need to be overcome to still make it work. But I will try to at least address them.

1) NIMBY: True, no one wants a RLD in their backyard unless you're a bar, headshop, internet cafe, etc. You couldn't put this in any residential neighborhood. It would have to be commercial/industrial.

2) Anti-Prostitution: They won't be happy with anything anyway, so why worry about them. Since they've not been successful in banning prostitution I'm of the opinion that they don't have any control either.

3) Bad Areas: Agreed. Alternatively, we could compromise and turn the streets immediately off the HDR, KL, NYB into the accepted area since it's already one now. If you were to add more short time hotel rooms to that area, you'd be 80% to the finished product already. And it wouldn't affect anything that's not already affected. You already have the pick up bars half of the equation, all you need is the rooms. Granted, it's not as compact and isolated as I'd wish, but it's a possibility. No one's going to get the HDR to go away, so it's a footprint to use perhaps.

4) Dangerous: Agreed again. This is a serious issue for any tourist-centric area. SJPD would be wise to patrol it, but they've shown no willingness to protect anyone to this point. I am amazed by the shortsightedness of business owners in not providing security around their areas, it doesn't cost hardly anything in the big picture and would improve the situation immensely, both for the customers, but also for the reputation and perception of the citizens of the area. If the area really was confined to one street or a small footprint, one security contract shared by all businesses would be no problem.

5) Additions you suggest: Agree with all of them, which would again make it more palatable to the citizens than the situation is now. On relocation: Most businesses will not be excited about relocating, but the concentration of business will be good for them long term. A few larger more popular independent locations could survive without moving (thinking of ZB) if they modified their business model a little to be more above board. So they wouldn't be involved. But the little places, if they want to stay away from being perceived as brothels, will need to band together and split up the business models into two separate divisions in order to stay away from being brothels. Either provide a great place to hang out, and make your money on the bar tabs, or rent rooms and make your money there. But in both cases stay out of the girls pockets and you are not running afoul of the law, and of people's perceptions. In fact, that business model would even be legal in the US.

The biggest flaw in the whole idea I think is believing that the CR government is wise enough and proactive enough to pursue this on their own. In reality, it would probably have to be a business led initiative, sold to the government as a compromise to get them on board, or would have to just be enacted unilaterally by the businesses and give the finger to the government because they would be acting in a more legal and acceptable way and telling the government to get stuffed and that they couldn't do anything about it.

In my opinion, measures enacted to self-regulate and self-improve are usually enough to get the attention to die down and the fever to subside to the point that there's no longer the critical mass it takes to get serious action. The movie, music, airlines, auto, and financial industries have all done similar things to successfully preempt and avoid further regulation.

 

[Charles B]

Archie,
I don't want to be the one to throw cold water on your dreams. I think it actually could be a pretty good idea, IF the bugs could be worked out. Unfortunately, I still think the bugs are still there. Let me address your last post working up from the bottom.

A) Adult businesses acting proactively may be what it takes to "take the heat off", but I'm not so sure how much you can rely on the far-sightedness of business to compromise for its long-term interest. And I'm also not sure how comparable or valid the industry examples you provided really are. To begin with the transportation and financial sectors in this country ARE heavily regulated.

The airlines used to be even more heavily regulated until about 30 years ago when they were set free to set their own prices. Routes and schedules are still heavily regulated and the price thing has been a real mixed blessing. The immediate effect was not collective action but price wars that has led to an industry that is killing itself. Collectively the airlines have lost BILLIONS of dollars since deregulation took place and despite that there have been charges by the general public all along that there was price collusion going on between the airline oligopoly.

The US auto industry is probably less regulated but still an excellent example of an industry that is too shortsighted to act in its own long-term self-interest. For example, if it weren't for CAFE standards (set by the government with industry lobbyists kicking and screaming) the industry would have been even more heavily dependent on the gas-guzzling SUV dinosaurs than they already are and in even deeper doodoo now as a result.

The financial sector is also heavily regulated, but the big news now for that sector was in the one area they were not - subprime mortgages. Ten years before that it was with the S&L's. Whenever they're left too much to their own devices, they eventually blow up and the FDIC or their shareholders have to come in and bail them out. And the political winds now are pointing to more not less regulation.

Finally, there are the movie and music industries. Admittedly, those are much better examples of self-regulation staving off government action but even there I'd argue that there are major differences between them and what you're talking about. First of all, the lack of government action in this country probably has as much to do with those industries wrapping themselves in the constitution and the protections it affords for them by the 1st amendment. Secondly, in the case of the movies, the MPAA only acted after extremely heavy govt. and public pressure back in 1968 and despite that there have continued to be calls for stronger enforcement.

In the case of the music industry, the 1st amendment still protects what can be recorded but the FCC still limits what can be broadcast (just ask Janet Jackson and Howard Stern). And when it comes to the recording industry the only "self-regulation" that exists are the Parental Advisory Labels (the so-called Tipper Stickers). And those were not dreamed up by the RIAA who resisted them tooth and nail. That idea came from the PTA and the PRMC (Tipper Gore's group) back in 1985 as THEIR compromise when they were not able to get stronger action taken in government hearings (presumably due to successful counter lobbying by the record industry). Ironically, those labels have been seen by many in the indistry as a real godsend as many K*ds deliberately seek out and purchase those CD;s that HAVE the warning on them. Much of the music produced today is every bit as violent and sexist as what was produced in 1985 if not much more so and the handwringing by parents and others and the calls for further regulation are crashing just as hard against the wall of the 1st amendment as back then.

But I digress...

B) The biggest flaw in the whole idea iIS believing that the CR government is wise enough and proactive enough to pursue this on their own. Undoubtedly true, but I don't have much faith that the CR adult entertainment industry is any wiser or more proactive. NEITHER side really acted that strongly or swiftly when there were problems about security in the GULCH. Ultimately it was the government that did at least something by adding more police patrols. And it should also be pointed out that the city HAS acted to create other specialized zones, most recently with the addition of a pedestrian way on Avenida 4, but also with its proposed "Chinatown" around the Soledad church and Paseo de los Estudiantes (anyone know if anything more has happened on that besides talk?)

5) On relocating, I agree that most businesses will not be excited about moving, but that the concentration of business might be good for them long term. However, how hard would it really be for the smaller business to pick up their mattresses off the floor and move to another storefront? The larger problem would be with businesses that have more invested in infrastructure especially ZB, NF, and the pick-up bars like the BM, KL, MB and NYB. Unless the Zona Roja was somehow laid out to include them, they'd either have to bite the financial bullet it would take to relocate or modify their business model enough to avoid further action by the city. And the changes you proposed might be enough to do that. But then, if they were able to do that successfully and remain outside of the Zona Roja, why couldn't all of the businesses just do the same thing and forget about the Zona Roja model altogether

4) Re: security. Again we are in complete agreement (minor point though is that it's the FP Fuerza Publica not SJPD)

3) Even though the Gulch is already heavily known for being what it is and the fact that there would be a few politically influential heavyweights on the side of the adult industry in that quarter (namely the HDR), I really don't see the Zona Roja going there. True, the HDR probably is not going away anytime soon, but that is not the same thing as officially sanctioning it and added even MORE monger traffic to the area than there already is. There are also several significant NON-adult industry players in that neighborhood:

a) First, of all there is a major school directly across from the KL and another directly across the park from it. I'd forget about putting any OFFICIAL Rona Roja in any neighborhood that included a school just a block away. I just don't see that ever flying.

b)There are also several other business that probably would not like being forced out of the area (or forced to be in it) such as the major bank that is directly across from the Morazon, or the brand new Plaza Venida Shopping Center that is directly across the street from the NYB or the venerable Balcon de Europa restaurant that is right next door and has been in that location for generations.

c) The Sleep Inn would be a formidable political counterweight to the HDR on the side AGAINST making that an OFFICIAL Zona Roja and drawing even more adult businesses to the area. And the Balmoral would undoubtedly back them up. What do you have on the side of the HDR? The tiny Morazon or the even tinier Hotel Asia and perhaps a couple of other microbusinesses? And its anybody's guess where the Presidente would weigh in on this debate but I wouldn't bet on them coming out on our side.

d) Plus if you were looking for someplace that was away from heavy traffic and the public eye you probably couldn't have found a worse place. There are major bus stops just 1 block south of the HDR, the east end of the Avenida Central pedestrian mall which is heavily trafficked and popular with locals and tourists alike. And there are major traffic flows up Calle 11 and across Avenida 5, so these places would be in the view of practically every tourist toting taxi that makes a trip in that part of town. OTOH relatively fewer tourists go into the NW sector on the other side of Calle Central and it is more easily avoided by taxis and other motorists and plcing the Zona Roja ther might make it easier to draw some of the business that are in the Gulch OUT of that area instead of drawing more IN.

2) True, the anti-prostitution lobby won't be too happy with anything short of an outright ban on prostitution altogether and have had only limited success up until now. OTOH, they have at least gotten the government to act with this recent crackdown, so they're not completely powerless. And they're not likely to go away simply because we hide the mongering activities in some more out of the way neighborhood. If anything that might provide more a concentrated face for them to rally against. And they will always be, at the very least, a political force fighting against this proposal that already is iffy enough.

1) The current UNOFFICIAL Zona Roja is entirely commercial/industrial AND devoid of any major business with any political clout with the one exception of the Best Western (unless you count the scores of seedy bars, MP's and clubs like Josephines or Lipsticks). Does anybody have a guess how the BW would come down on this proposal if the RLD were put in their neighborhood? I'm not really sure. I AM sure that their Best Western parent company might not be too happy with it. However, the local managment might welcome the added business it would bring and the place could turn into the next most popular monger hotel in San Jose. At worst they might lose their BW affiliation or BW might sell out and relocate to another nicer area (I don't believe its like they're getting that much non-monger business right now given the seediness of the area) leaving the former BW to be taken over by someone who actually wants to take advantage of a large hotel with so many rooms located in the heart of an area that will be visited regularly by so many gringo monger visitors.

 

[Love My Hubby]

MP Closings Hidden Agenda Exposed - Zona Rojo Coming

You said you think the bugs are still there. Well of course they are, if it was perfect there wouldn't be any discussion needed. And there will ALWAYS be a thousand problems. We're talking about one of the most controversial businesses on the planet. You're never going to get everyone to agree. And you're never going to get people outside the business to back you.

Regulation: I'm not arguing that those are unregulated businesses, just that each of them has successfully at some point been proactive in getting the government off their back on an issue by fixing it themselves first. But that doesn't matter one way or another for our discussion.

You asked that if some businesses could be allowed to survive, then what's the point of any of them moving. The only reason some could survive outside is that they create their own critical mass of customers and thus could still alter their business model and survive. Most of these MPs can not do that. To survive in the new business model they would need to have a few of them together to attract a larger client base than one alone would generate.

The whole point of ALL of this is to get the businesses to change their business model away from being brothels, so they are not at the mercy of every whim of the government for harassment. Most of these businesses now do not actually profit from the deed, just the ancillary charges like beer and rooms, so separate your business completely and never be accused of being pimps and brothels. Let all the girls be independent and make your money on the rooms, or selling refreshments to the crowds. Get away from managing the girls. But to make all that profitable, you need to have a) more concentrated customers than the current spread all over town, and b) rid yourself of the expenses associated with everything else other than renting your rooms.


Again:

(Ok, so that’s my fantasy, and my solution. I’m not saying it’s going to happen, or that it’s even likely, but it should. Your opinions and suggestions are welcome. I’m sure the San Jose city council is eagerly awaiting our solution to the problem so let’s get busy and plan our own Disneyland. But one caveat: have fun, be imaginative, and don’t be a whining depressing naysayer. Come up with your own T*******.)

What is your solution? As I said earlier, 1) the SJ government isn't proactive enough to actually do this, and 2) it's likely none of the business owners are smart enough and farsighted enough to get off their lazy asses and come up with something, and 3) no one outside the business is on our side, so it's up to us to tell them what they need to do and maybe someone will do it.

 

[Uncannyxman]

And like I said essentially - I don't want to come off as a whining depressing naysayer. I actually think there is a lot of good things to be said for the approach you suggested, especially once it ever gets implemented. I just see a lot of hurdles to bridge befoer we get to that point.

For the smaller MP/brothels, I think they could really stand a lot to gain by working off of each other in a complementary way in a concentrated area rather than seeing each other as competition to be spaced as far apart from each other as they can. Its not like they really serve some sort of local market anyway where people in their immediate area go only to their neighborhood brothel. Okay, maybe it might work something like that with some of the more nondescript hole-in the wall places tucked away in the more remote neighborhoods of San Jose, like Desamparados o r Guadalupe or something. but those are not the sort of places that we're really talking about hear (or even really know anything about).

Have you ever noticed how in some markets the major competitors often actually place their outlets really close to each other rather than in markets the other party does not serve. You see this with books between Barnes & Noble and Borders, hardware between Lowes and Home Depot, etc. In some cases this might be to directly compete toe-to-toe with the other side, but in other cases I think it is because there is a SYNERGISTIC effect where the business BOTH sides get is actually more than if the 2 stores were set off somewhere else by themselves. the reason is because sometimes customers want to go in to check what is available at one place and then also be able to check out the other at the same time.

In the case of MP's in SJ, how often do each of us pop our heads into one place to see whats there and then walk away to check out the next place for comparison until we find something we like. We can do this because the places are close enough to each other to make this practical - ie the BangBang walking tour. How likely would it be that we would visit a place at all if it weren't so close to the other places? Think about MP's that are set further away from where others are semi-concentrated (e.g. Siboney). How much less often do any of us make it down to there? And how much more would we go for a round of the MP's if they were all right next door to each other and we didn't have to walk for over a block or more in a rough neighborhood to get to the next one? So what you propose makes a helluva lotta sense for business on that level even aside from the possible advantages for the anti-prostitution crowd in limiting where these places could go. A win-win situation for all.

Places like ZB and NF are a slightly different story. They've got much more invested in infrastructure where they are now and so have much more to lose from being forced to move. They are close enough to each other that they may benefit from some "cross-pollination" (guys going to check out one place and then the other), but they are much more of a stand-alone operation with guys travelling to their location just to visit that one place. they have less to gain from having other MP's nearby to help draw traffic and, in fact, might actually stand to lose a bit due to proximity to lower priced competition (although I think to at least some extent there is also a quality difference which in full or in part justifies the difference in price).

For those places that don't move, and for that matter even those that do move to a RLD, I think a revision of their business models from current practices is really in order. One can try to maintain that they are not really pimping but simply renting out rooms as some have in this or other threads, but who are we really fooling. The pensione thing is really nothing more than a legal fig leaf used to get around the laws.

I'd love to hear Blue Coyote's counter arguments but I personally find it very hard to see how taking a 50% cut or more out of what the girls make can really be justified or seen as anything other than pimping. And I don't mean to single him out because that is what all of these places do. Okay, he has provided a very nice place for us to go a) a nice bar (whose cost may or may not be made up for by the profits on drinks and other services provided) b) steam, sauna, internet and other bells and whistles (which we may or may not really care to take advantage of) c) and of course clean rooms with fresh sheets :roll: and private hot water showers. All of that cost him considerable money to put in and is not available at the bargain places, so he is certainly entitled to a higher rate of return to help pay for it.

He might also argue that there is some cost in either money or effort to promote his place and draw the customers in that the chicas can then profit from, but that could be a dangerous argument to make since one could then ask if he is really promoting his place and all the niceties that are there or the chicas themselves that are available there, which really WOULD amount to proxetinism (sp?).

Proxitenism or Pimping is either the promotion of prostitution or the direct profiting from it. If an MP is promoting its ROOMS, that is one thing. But if it is really promoting the girls that are there then it is something else. And how they can do one without really doing the other is the problem. Alternatively, if an MP can't promote itself as anything other than a simple pensione than how are the chicas that work there going to promote it themselves? It would much harder for them to promote their place of business themselves either collectively or individually.

The other side of proxitenism is the profiting off of the prostitution of others. If an MP is simply profiting from its ROOMS as opposed to whatever the 2 private parties decide to do inside them, then how can rates so much more than the typical REAL pensione be justified. If a room at someplace like the Hotel Asia can be rented out for $10/night, how can an MP like say Muses justify renting out a room that isn't even as nice for $10/hr? And even with all their structural improvements how can the more upscale places justify $20/hour for their rooms? It seems a fairer approach that could not be seen as pimping would be for these places to charge a flat fee to the girls for them to take a customer back plus maybe an additional sheet or towel fee if they actually changed the sheets in some of those places. Or they could charge them a flat fee per shift regardless of how many guys they took back. But they couldn't charge the chicas both and they douldn't charge them different amounts based on a percentage of what the chica charged the client.

The chicas could charge the gringos as much or as little to the gringos as they wanted in the back or even leave the premises altogether and go back to the gringos room if that is what he wanted without having to pay any sort of penalty for going out. Of course the chicas might want to try to set some sort of standard price for services rendered, so that customers could go there without having to expect any haggling (an aspect of MP's that I certainly appreciate). And maybe they could stick to it, although in such an unstructured entrepreneurial environment I'd expect once you got in the back or back to yiour hotel some chicas might undercut the "official" rate to try and get extra business while the better ones might ask for a premium if they could get away with it. So the fixed price aspect of current MP's might be one unfortunate casualty of this new approach. Ultimately, in a "pimp-free" non regulated independent contractor environment, the rates would be entirely up to the chicas themselves .Presumably, the girls would charge enough to cover their expenses, or if the couldn't would get out of the business. However much they made beyond that would be based on their appeal, how much they could charge each time or how often they could get a guy to take them back (ie volume).