Off Topic v.2

bigbill said:

People that don't think global warming is man-made or a severe issue are missing the facts. This has been studied, extensively, and other than some random junk science, it's universally accepted to be true.

Nothing can be "proven." Gravity is a theory. Most all science works this way.

I agree that governments need to be fiscally responsible, but also understand that governments work contrary to business. When times are good, governments need to contract, keep taxe rates stable (don't reduce them to eliminate surpluses) and fill the treasury with money. Don't build large scale infrastructure that competes with business for labour.

The PCs did exactly the wrong things. When the boom came they cut taxes and failed to put money away. They tried to build some infrastructure but not much got done because they were bidding for scarce labour and the costs were astronomical. Then the bust came and there was no rainy day money. It's essential as that's the time for government to step in. Build things and grow your infrastructure to prepare for the next boom. Also, during downturns people need social services more than ever. Retrain obsolete workers. Heath care demands increase. And so on.

The NDP were handed the worst possible scenario. A massive downturn and no money in the bank. A huge infrastructure deficit and no way to pay for it. Social program demands were rising thanks to the people out of work.

Back to climate change. Ignore the science and ignore the escalating costs from severe weather. The reality is that almost all institutional investors are not ignoring these things and walking around saying "we don't believe in man-made climate change" won't alter their investing strategies. Without that investment, it won't matter what happens, Alberta is sunk.

Exxon has internal documents from the 1970s predicting rising carbon emissions would be detrimental. These are facts, and ignoring them is foolhardy. The world is coming around to seeing this as the real and severe issue it is and if we don't get on board, we're left long behind.

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40 years of conservatives mismanagement and we elected them again??? Jason is a crook still embroiled in last year leader election with all his dirty tricks like Nixon.Lay back and see how the people are tricked once again

JWL1668 said:

40 years of conservatives mismanagement and we elected them again??? Jason is a crook still embroiled in last year leader election with all his dirty tricks like Nixon.Lay back and see how the people are tricked once again

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Maybe so but the election was not based on finding a perfect solution but rather a better one. Social services and government created positions were the ones who saw prosperity the past four years. Alberta and Canada as a whole cannot support itself without industry. Very few countries can. Travel the world and see how others survive and struggle to meet their basic needs.

distinguished.gentleman said:

I don't think any system can operate without abuse, and that's factored into the overall cost of the programs. I can speak to the value of the system to me, having had ailing parents over a number of years, a grandchild who had extreme health issues for two years, and two friends who dealt with heart problems. Access has always been excellent, and care was above reproach. I'm sure for every story like mine there are tales of neglect, or over waiting, but I've never had direct confirmations from anyone I've known. Unfortunately, healthcare is always going to be contentious in the budget.
I also spend a good deal of time in the US. The abuse there is the healthcare companies 'boning' the patients monetarily.

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I think the problems are much more widespread than you are aware..their are people from all over the world who come here for expensive treatments, surgeries etc...ab health cards with no photo are very easy to obtain or they use the card of a relative...or they are treated just because we have to.....i have witnessed so called refugees receiving kidney transplants (X2), AIDS treatments, heart and lung transplants...take a peek inside the grey nuns hospital and ask yourself if you think most of those patients actually live in this country...access is one thing but the cost is astronomical....the CPP and CPP-D programs are paying thousands to people from all over the world monies that are going right out of this economy...did you know you can receive CPP and CPP-D when living o/s of Canada......have you heard the term the "six foot drop" ??? foreign workers who magically fell off a ladder and with their 6 children returned to their country of origin with 2K a month in Canadian CPP-D benefits...I could go on for days about welfare and other programs, but the point is we Cannot afford it any longer...we Cannot compete with countries who have no social programs..giving and sharing is one thing , but turning a once beautiful country into a third world dumping ground is another...

Around the world most successful countries use their available resources and assets and rely on utilizing them to become stronger, wealthier. They then invest that wealth into opportunities at home and elsewhere, to diversify for the future and become even stronger. But to begin, they don't shit on their own assets, resources, capabilities. Look at China - Using their manufacturing base, they amassed a massive reserve of foreign currencies, and they are now buying/investing globally, especially in Africa and other parts of Asia. While Canada is screwing itself, trying to save the world from climate change. I am surprised that there is no initiative yet for all 37 million of us to move down to a more temperate area like Tennessee where we would use less energy to meet our living needs, and thereby emit less GHG, lol. Aren't we so, so good? Like lemmings.

Not only is the Cdn middle class earning power stalled for decades, we have allowed Chinese money laundering to disrupt real estate markets, so most households have mortgages that are 30% to 50% bigger than they should have been, which means even less monies saved and invested in stocks (owning diverse companies in several economies). But hey, if ppl are happy with watching hockey and toking up, so be it. Real change requires individuals to make up their minds, get involved and shake things up. It's not the money launderer who lives on your street in a nice enough home, but pays almost no personal income tax that is going to take up your fight.






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Albertaman said:

Around the world most successful countries use their available resources and assets and rely on utilizing them to become stronger, wealthier. They then invest that wealth into opportunities at home and elsewhere, to diversify for the future and become even stronger. But to begin, they don't shit on their own assets, resources, capabilities. Look at China - Using their manufacturing base, they amassed a massive reserve of foreign currencies, and they are now buying/investing globally, especially in Africa and other parts of Asia. While Canada is screwing itself, trying to save the world from climate change. I am surprised that there is no initiative yet for all 37 million of us to move down to a more temperate area like Tennessee where we would use less energy to meet our living needs, and thereby emit less GHG, lol. Aren't we so, so good? Like lemmings.

Not only is the Cdn middle class earning power stalled for decades, we have allowed Chinese money laundering to disrupt real estate markets, so most households have mortgages that are 30% to 50% bigger than they should have been, which means even less monies saved and invested in stocks (owning diverse companies in several economies). But hey, if ppl are happy with watching hockey and toking up, so be it. Real change requires individuals to make up their minds, get involved and shake things up. It's not the money launderer who lives on your street in a nice enough home, but pays almost no personal income tax that is going to take up your fight.
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I had to move to BC early 2000's and the house I bought here about a year prior was valued at $135k when I moved back to Alberta about 8 years later that same home was worth $500K! How the hell does property appreciate that fast without something illegal or corrupt going on?

ChaosFactor said:

I had to move to BC early 2000's and the house I bought here about a year prior was valued at $135k when I moved back to Alberta about 8 years later that same home was worth $500K! How the hell does property appreciate that fast without something illegal or corrupt going on?

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But the banks told us that now we are wealthy, and can borrrow even more against our HELOCs. Big CDN Banks don't lie, do they? Yea, so why not borrow some more and park that $80K SUV on the driveway. Let's make it two, so the wife can have one too. Why bother with practical vehicles like Toyota Corollas, when the money launderer down the street has a couple of Benzes. Save? Invest in stocks, who needs that? The bank told me I'm rich. I have home equity. Home prices will rise for ever. Yea.

Joking aside, it is not a funny joke. Monies earned through hard work can never compete against stolen overseas monies that have flooded every corner of Canada. The victims will be Canadians who have taken on big debts, thanks to the propaganda of the Banks... you are richer than you think... ring a bell?

Think I'm exaggerating... look up Edmonton's own, Hilliard MacBeth, and see what he has written. When the Bubble Bursts. It is only a question of When, not If.

It's time to get our own house, province and country in order. Watching endless hockey won't cut it. Do the players ever invest in our own backyard? Doubt it.


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Guest 2 said:

Only Peter Lougheed contributed to the heritage fund. No one else contributed the royalties, they used them like they were free money! That's why Norway is so far ahead!

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I liked your post because I agree with the first part of it entirely, the second part not so much.

It is important to remember that one of the reasons Norwegian government appears so far ahead financially is that on top of the oil oil royalties (1 Trillion or so) that they have banked over the decades they also have a very high personal income tax rate (one of the highest). The taxation allows them to run day to day government while putting aside the oil royalties for a "rainy day"

Their VAT is a whopping 25%. Personal income tax rates border 55%. Corporate profits tax ranges from 28% to as high as 78% On top of all of that they also have a direct wealth tax. In fact Norway is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world with a total tax burden of Over 50% of GDP (Canada sits around 31%). In fact, the average Norwegian household pays roughly $70,000 per year in tax. Add in the the countries oil income, and government tax revenue exceeds $100,000 per household.

In Alberta we reaped the benefits of a lower tax rate and NO Sales Tax (VAT) in lieu of higher taxes, the oil royalties made up the difference rather than getting banked.

We all pay one way or the other.

ChaosFactor said:

Funny comment considering all the guys on here go for expensive massages several times a month some couple of times a week. Massage therapists from China who flock here because we throw money at them and an escort industry that charges the highest rates nationwide.
Then lets talk cabins, investments and big boy toys. How many on here have those? Alberta has the highest median income so yeah the PC's did pretty good.
I would say there is a high percent of disposable income here for more than just the 1% unless everyone else on here is the 1%

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I am sharing data with you, not opinion, not what I think or you think about things. 25% of Edmonton's workforce earn less than a living wage, based on stats can data. I am at the low range of the 1% so who knows maybe most of us are. WHile I am at it, Alberta has the lowest by far debt per person in the country. Debt isn't as much a problem as we think, and we have a revenue problem much more so than a spending problem. We could increase taxes by 7 billion per year and still be the lowest taxed province in the country.

How about this?

http://www.cwp-csp.ca/poverty/just-the-facts/

Basic statistics about poverty in Canada
The following are statistics about the current reality of poverty in Canada.

• 1 in 7 (or 4.9 million) people in Canada live in poverty.
• In Edmonton, 1 in 8 individuals are currently living in poverty.
• Poverty costs Canada billions of dollar annually.
• Precarious employment has increased by nearly 50% over the past two decades.
• Between 1980 and 2005, the average earnings among the least wealthy Canadians fell by 20%.
• Over the past 25 years, Canada’s population has increased by 30% and yet annual national investment in housing has decreased by 46%.

Poverty & Demographics
Marginalized Communities
Some members of society are particularly susceptible to the effects of poverty. The following statistics suggest groups who are particularly likely to experience poverty.

• People living with disabilities (both mental and physical) are twice as likely to live below the poverty lin
• Nearly 15% of people with disabilities live in poverty, 59% of which are women.
• Estimates place the number of homeless individuals living with a disability or mental illness as high as 45% of the overall homeless population.
• Children with disabilities are twice as likely to live in households relying on social assistance
• 21% of single mothers in Canada raise their children while living in poverty (7% of single fathers raise their children in poverty).
• Women parenting on their own enter shelters at twice the rate of two-parent families.
• Indigenous Peoples (including First Nations, Métis, and Inuit peoples) are overrepresented among the homeless population in virtually all urban centres in Canada.
• 28%-34% of shelter users are Indigenous.
• 1 in 5 racialized families live in poverty in Canada, as opposed to 1 in 20 non-racialized families.
• Racialized women living in poverty were almost twice as likely to work in manufacturing jobs than other women living in poverty.
• Overall, racialized women earn 32% less at work.
• Nearly 15% of elderly single individuals live in poverty.
• Nearly 2 million seniors receive the Guaranteed Income Supplement, and live on about $17,000 per year. However, the most basic standard of living in Canada is calculated at $18,000 per year for a single person

Child Poverty
Children and youth under 18 are particularly vulnerable to conditions of poverty. The following statistics outline risk factors and the realities of youth poverty in Canada.

• In Canada, 1.3 million children live in conditions of poverty (that’s 1 in 5).
• 1 in 2 Status First Nations children lives in poverty.
• 8% of children in British Columbia live in poverty with children under the age of 6 representing an even higher poverty rate of 20.1% (both are higher than the national average of 18.5%)
• 1 in 5 Edmontonian children (under the age of 18) live in poverty, which increases to 1 in 3 children in single-parent families.
• 40% of Indigenous children in Canada live in poverty, and 60% of Indigenous children on reserves live in poverty.
• More than one-third of food bank users across Canada were children in 2016.
• About 1 in 7 of those using shelters in Canada are children.

distinguished.gentleman said:

I'm sure for every story like mine there are tales of neglect, or over waiting, but I've never had direct confirmations from anyone I've known.

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I think part of the problem, too, is that our system focusses more on the cure than prevention. Part of that is our own fault too, like me and poor eating habits.
Our system seems better than years ago but as you say, some do, unfortunately, slip thru the cracks.

boysgame said:

How about this?

http://www.cwp-csp.ca/poverty/just-the-facts/

Basic statistics about poverty in Canada
The following are statistics about the current reality of poverty in Canada.

• 1 in 7 (or 4.9 million) people in Canada live in poverty.
• In Edmonton, 1 in 8 individuals are currently living in poverty.
• Poverty costs Canada billions of dollar annually.
• Precarious employment has increased by nearly 50% over the past two decades.
• Between 1980 and 2005, the average earnings among the least wealthy Canadians fell by 20%.
• Over the past 25 years, Canada’s population has increased by 30% and yet annual national investment in housing has decreased by 46%.

Poverty & Demographics
Marginalized Communities
Some members of society are particularly susceptible to the effects of poverty. The following statistics suggest groups who are particularly likely to experience poverty.

• People living with disabilities (both mental and physical) are twice as likely to live below the poverty lin
• Nearly 15% of people with disabilities live in poverty, 59% of which are women.
• Estimates place the number of homeless individuals living with a disability or mental illness as high as 45% of the overall homeless population.
• Children with disabilities are twice as likely to live in households relying on social assistance
• 21% of single mothers in Canada raise their children while living in poverty (7% of single fathers raise their children in poverty).
• Women parenting on their own enter shelters at twice the rate of two-parent families.
• Indigenous Peoples (including First Nations, Métis, and Inuit peoples) are overrepresented among the homeless population in virtually all urban centres in Canada.
• 28%-34% of shelter users are Indigenous.
• 1 in 5 racialized families live in poverty in Canada, as opposed to 1 in 20 non-racialized families.
• Racialized women living in poverty were almost twice as likely to work in manufacturing jobs than other women living in poverty.
• Overall, racialized women earn 32% less at work.
• Nearly 15% of elderly single individuals live in poverty.
• Nearly 2 million seniors receive the Guaranteed Income Supplement, and live on about $17,000 per year. However, the most basic standard of living in Canada is calculated at $18,000 per year for a single person

Child Poverty
Children and youth under 18 are particularly vulnerable to conditions of poverty. The following statistics outline risk factors and the realities of youth poverty in Canada.

• In Canada, 1.3 million children live in conditions of poverty (that’s 1 in 5).
• 1 in 2 Status First Nations children lives in poverty.
• 8% of children in British Columbia live in poverty with children under the age of 6 representing an even higher poverty rate of 20.1% (both are higher than the national average of 18.5%)
• 1 in 5 Edmontonian children (under the age of 18) live in poverty, which increases to 1 in 3 children in single-parent families.
• 40% of Indigenous children in Canada live in poverty, and 60% of Indigenous children on reserves live in poverty.
• More than one-third of food bank users across Canada were children in 2016.
• About 1 in 7 of those using shelters in Canada are children.

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I can't comment on all the stats but here are a couple of points to consider when you think of poverty numbers.
Anyone who works for cash or receives cash tips unless they are honest and report every penny are considered impoverished so many of the RMT's, servers, bartenders, handymen, etc are poor as defined by the govt so yes that RMT who drives the Beemer is poor! Now take this situation and times it by 100 and you will know how many foreigners in BC fall under the poverty line where cash is king and many Asian and SE Asian businesses such as restaurants accept only cash!
Same if you have money overseas, doesn't matter if you own 4 houses in your country because here you work for minimum so you are poor.
Now people here who have minimum wage jobs. I know a guy who has 4 kids, he and his wife both work FT at minimum wage jobs for having 4 kids the govt pays them $1900 tax free every month plus CPP or they get the full $600+ gst rebate every 3 months, and a few other large lump sums for different things that I have never qualified for.
They bring home more in a month tax free than the majority of the middle class so where is the motivation to get a better job? Because if he does get a better paying job he knows he will be taxed higher and lose most of those benefits so he will actually make less money.
Many of the people who go to the food bank and take advantage of the free services the city offers to low income people drive to the office in an assortment of very expensive vehicles.
The system is broken.

I know a lot of adult family-raising people that work minimum wage jobs and most of them can't "just get a better job" no matter how much they'd want to. They work at your grocery store and your coffee shop and your McDonalds and they work hard and often are treated poorly. They have few benefits, a minimal pension plan if any, and we shouldn't discount their work because we see it as menial and beneath us. It's not. They play a valuable role in society.

I was fortunate to have been raised in a middle class family and was given many advantages. I was able to go to university and my career involved professional occupations where I could tend to my sick child without losing my job. My child got braces because I had great dental benefits, so now they don't have crooked teeth - and yes, a mouthful of crooked teeth can hinder your outcomes in life. All those little things add up.

As an economist I studied poverty. It's a fascinating area of study, as rational behaviour goes out the window when it comes to how people in poverty behave, but once you really dive into it, you realize humans are humans regardless of situation. Read up on "poverty traps" and you might even stumble upon some of my own work.

What I would like to see is the elimination of most social programs. They're too complex and too difficult to administer. They also don't look forward as we need to cope with the dramatic increases in productivity thanks to automation, and other systems that have caused output and GDP to grow but not employment. The idea of a basic income makes more and more sense with the world we face and will be facing in the next 30+ years. Before you reply with "no one will go to work..." and other canned responses please read up on the way it can be implemented to compensate for rising productivity and continue to incentivize people to work. The simplification of the social safety net system alone is worth it.

bigbill said:

I know a lot of adult family-raising people that work minimum wage jobs and most of them can't "just get a better job" no matter how much they'd want to. They work at your grocery store and your coffee shop and your McDonalds and they work hard and often are treated poorly. They have few benefits, a minimal pension plan if any, and we shouldn't discount their work because we see it as menial and beneath us. It's not. They play a valuable role in society.

I was fortunate to have been raised in a middle class family and was given many advantages. I was able to go to university and my career involved professional occupations where I could tend to my sick child without losing my job. My child got braces because I had great dental benefits, so now they don't have crooked teeth - and yes, a mouthful of crooked teeth can hinder your outcomes in life. All those little things add up.

As an economist I studied poverty. It's a fascinating area of study, as rational behaviour goes out the window when it comes to how people in poverty behave, but once you really dive into it, you realize humans are humans regardless of situation. Read up on "poverty traps" and you might even stumble upon some of my own work.

What I would like to see is the elimination of most social programs. They're too complex and too difficult to administer. They also don't look forward as we need to cope with the dramatic increases in productivity thanks to automation, and other systems that have caused output and GDP to grow but not employment. The idea of a basic income makes more and more sense with the world we face and will be facing in the next 30+ years. Before you reply with "no one will go to work..." and other canned responses please read up on the way it can be implemented to compensate for rising productivity and continue to incentivize people to work. The simplification of the social safety net system alone is worth it.

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There is value in a basic income especially when you know eventually jobs like truck driving will be handled by self driving vehicles putting hundreds of thousands of young men out of work!
Here is the big BUT, which version do you use and do you truly trust Canadian govts to get it right?
It would have to be a Conservative govt introducing it because leftist govts are not responsible enough with finances.

Check out the governments that have driven the debt up the most. Conservatives are not conservative. They're greedy, and they cut taxes to their friends and run up deficit spending on the backs of the middle class. You can point to Klein all you like but he was ruinous to Alberta. The budget was balanced on the backs of spending cuts to municipalities (checked your property tax bill?) and by letting infrastructure rot away. If you look at the balance sheet of Alberta for the last 40 years and not just the revenue statement you'll see that financial minsmangement was incredible. The flat tax was ludicriuous, a give away to the top earners. Cutting corporate taxes did zippo to save the boom/bust cycle. They were at their lowest when the economy crashed.


Harper was much the same. He had a balanced budget his last go around only because the PCs sold off a ton of assets and counted the influx of money as revenue instead of capital to be banked. Mulroney ran the debt up like mad.

I do agree that Albertans do need to "look in the mirror" as Prentice said. I talked to numerous people in O&G in 2013 that said "this is the boom that never ends." And they spent like that. Look at all the $80,000 pick ups I see on the road. Pulling huge campers with quads and side-by-sides. It goes on and on. If I'd had a career in oil, I'd have tried to estimate my average earnings including bust times and lived on that.

But I didn't. I took my considerable education and skills and sought a career in public service. I accepted a lower salary than had a I continued to work in the private sector and in return I received job security and other benefits. Over my lifetime I earned less, but I liked the work more and liked the predictability of the income. Also, my services were always in demand - there was always interesting work to be done. Which is one reason why I rail against pointless layoffs in the public sector during downturns. If the services are needed and in demand, then they should be provided. That is why tax cuts during booms are idiotic.

The reason I like a national personal income over other programs is that it is simple. It's hard to mess up, regardless of ideology. It also replaces dozens, maybe hundreds, of programs.

Two things we need to do. The first is immediately cut the work week to 32 hours and cease out-of-scope and other work arounds. The work week was cut down steadily to 40 hours to compensate for rising productivity and we haven't altered it in a long long time. It needs to be done ASAP. Other countries are doing it, and it's time here.

The second is implementing a basic income. These two things will create jobs (the 32 hour work week) and solve a lot of program issues (income) and account for automation and other workforce issues.

Economists have long studied what creates jobs. Corporate tax cuts are among the worst incentives. There are dozens of more effective economic policies. But they're not give-always to wealthy friends. If anyone thinks the Kenney government cares about jobs other than the ones they havre as politicians and cabinet members, forget it. They're grifters, here to take what they can and run off.

bigbill, simply put there are NO Conservatives in any level of government, regardless of what they call themselves or claim to be. The problem is simple, he who promises the most on the campaign trail tends to get elected.The reality is the public expects to be taken care of from cradle to grave all the while complaining about the cost of government

Or has been famously quoted and over the years attributed to a number of individuals including Franklin and Hamilton
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

So, if we believer that sooner or later we will be ruled by a dictator or monarch (lets hope they are a benevolent one)